Showing posts with label classes. Show all posts
Showing posts with label classes. Show all posts

Wednesday, September 17, 2014

OD&D Attack Progressions Compared (Originals and Clones), Part III

'The Classic Dungeons & Dragons Game' (1994)
The painting above is from the cover of the last 'non-Advanced' Dungeons & Dragons edition to be published before the special category was discontinued. A few years later TSR would be sold to Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons lines would be folded into 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons--a game quite different from what had come before. The Dungeons & Dragons line (as opposed to the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons line) had itself undergone a number of changes--from the introductory 'Holmes' edition in 1977, to 'Moldvay/Cook' in 1981, the revised 'Mentzer' edition of 1983 and the various permutations of 'Basic', 'Expert', 'Companion' and 'RulesCyclopedia' versions which followed. However, one thing that stayed almost precisely constant during that time was the attack progressions of the various classes. The sequence of 2, 3, 2, 2, 3 point increases per step (for Fighting-Men a step was three levels, for Clerics and Thieves four levels and for Magic-Users 5 levels) was modified slightly to change the 3 point increases to 2 point increases. But otherwise the algorithm presented by Gygax and Arneson in 1974 remained the same (at least on the 'non-Advanced' side) for twenty years.

So, why do such things matter? In two previous posts here and here, it was hinted that perhaps they didn't. Virtually all old school originals and clones have numbers that are similar, with all following the same general pattern: It gets easier to hit as you go up in levels but different classes get better at different rates. Fighting-Men progress the fastest, followed by Clerics and then Magic-Users. Thieves are sometimes like Clerics and sometimes like Magic-Users.

One way to get a handle on the question is to look at an example of one of the most extreme variations between some of the games (again excluding the outlier,  Lamentations of the Flame Princess)--the attack numbers for mid- to high-level Magic-Users in 1e, OSRIC and Swords & Wizardry--and ask whether even that matters. A 10th level Magic-User in 1e or OSRIC needs a 17 to hit AC 2. In Swords & Wizardry Complete she only needs a 13 to hit AC 2. Another way of putting that is a 10th level Magic-User in Swords & Wizardry Complete is twice as effective on the attack as 10th level Magic-User in 1e or OSRIC.

One can I suppose see the justifications for each. High level Magic-Users are so powerful that they need to be taken down another peg in relation to the other classes (so goes the thinking behind the 1e and OSRIC numbers). Or high level Magic-Users are so pathetic in melee (having so few hit points and using such relatively ineffective weapons) that they need a bit of help (so goes the thinking behind Swords & Wizardry Complete).

But again, does the difference matter in the scheme of things? Are mid- to high level games in 1e and OSRIC going to differ very much from mid- to high level games in Swords & Wizardry Complete simply because of the above difference in attack numbers? I would say obviously not. Whatever your attack number, you don't want your 10th level Magic-User engaging in melee very often, and if she is unfortunate enough to find herself in a melee engagement, she'll probably be toast pretty soon anyway, whether or not she has a 20% per turn chance to hit the monster with her dagger or a 40% chance.

So I think it's clear that at a particular level, whether a particular class needs this number or that number to hit (as long as the numbers aren't too different) is really not that earthshaking an issue.

But I think the overall question of attack progressions does matter, or rather matters just as much as any other piece in the puzzle as far as rules sets go. I think it matters largely for aesthetic reasons. Contrast two attack progression tables, one from the three little brown books and the other from OSRIC.

First, the three little brown books:


Now OSRIC:



Actually, OSRIC has nine such tables, one for each class!

Now, to me, the first example is simple, elegant and intuitive, at least after one grasps the step thing. The second looks like something out of a Cal Tech Warlock variation. But the point of the exercise is not to be snarky against OSRIC. I'm sure there are some that prefer the granularity of the OSRIC table and like dealing with charts that look like that. That's okay. (Indeed, some would say that the attack progression presentation in my own game is almost as Cal Techy-looking as OSRIC's).  I'm simply trying to show that even though the actual numbers end up being pretty similar in practice (and even when they don't--such as for 10th level Magic-Users--the practical effect in play is minimal), the different presentations help to create different sorts of effects. The three little brown books are the three little brown books and OSRIC is OSRIC partly due to things like this.

And when I say aesthetics, I don't merely mean the direct visual look on the page. That's important, but there's also the lasting effect on one's assumptions and perceptions with what's going on in the game. OSRIC seems more 'realistic' or even 'naturalistic'. It's important to get these things right, the authors* seem to be saying. Since (presumably) Fighting-Men get better gradually, we should represent this process accurately.* That sort of thing helps to set the overall tone and vibe for the game.

*Of course with OSRIC the authors are to some extent trying to emulate the presentation and substance of 1e, so a bit of the blame (or praise) concerning these things should be placed on Gary Gygax.

A friend of mine commented that he liked discontinuous or 'chunky' progressions because he thought they discouraged a sort of annoying attitude he believes develops in some players--they expect to get a little something for everything, every time. That may or may not be true, or at least may or may not be true for some groups. But the fact that my friend--a very intelligent player and critic of game design--was thinking about it, shows that that sort of thing can matter.

Personally, I think the sort of symmetry exhibited by the three step, four step, five step algorithm--whether presented in table form as above, or in bonus point form as in my own game--fits the non-naturalistic vibe that I prefer. We're not, as it were, looking though a telescope at this world and then charting the results--oh, Fighting-Men progress at this rate, ah ha, Magic-Users progress at this rate, etc. Rather, we're defining these heroic archetypes clearly and simply with the algorithm that we've presented.

No, I don't believe I think too much about these things. But yes, it is wonky. Is there some way to get paid for it?

Monday, September 15, 2014

OD&D Attack Progressions Compared (Originals and Clones), Part II

Cook Expert
First, some quick notes on the tables in the previous post:

1. I didn't use Holmes because it only goes through 3rd level. Since it follows 0e, there's no variation in attack rolls for those levels. (I just noticed Zenopus said pretty much the same thing in his comment on the previous post.)

2. I left some major old school offerings off the list, such as Castles & Crusades, Basic Fantasy and Dungeon Crawls Classics. I did this partly because I am less familiar with these systems but  more importantly because they are not really 'clonish' of 0e, 1e or Basic/Expert.

3. I chose to look at only the first 10 levels because 10 is a round number and because it encompasses most of what I think referees and players are interested in when they look at these games. Also I just didn't feel like adding any more columns to the already somewhat squished ones of the five tables.

Now for my observations and thoughts on the results:

1. After I put the tables together I wrote an excited email to an OSR friend of mine--one of the only people I know who can occasionally be even wonkier than me on these sorts of matters. He wrote back:

Hmm... it looks like a bunch of numbers that are all very similar.

So there it is. The great anticlimactic lesson here is that, with one obvious exception, there isn't really that much difference between the attack progressions of the various editions and clones. Comparing the to hit numbers by class and level from one edition or game to another rarely yields a difference of more than 2 points or 10%.

2. The obvious exception is Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Here, James Raggi made the decision to give Fighting-Men a to hit bonus at 1st level and to increase this bonus at each level, while at the same time never giving to hit bonuses at any level to Magic-Users, Clerics or Thieves. This certainly pumps up Fighting-Men (at the expense of the others). I suppose it's either amazingly brilliant or spectacularly dumb.

3. There seems to be a big change between 0e and 1e, especially for Magic-Users and Thieves. However, part of this is illusory, or rather merely a natural consequence of expanding the normal armor class range such that it went from starting at AC 9 to starting at AC 10. Essentially 1e added an extra armor class at 6. This is because there was a spontaneous movement among the masses to give Studded Leather or Ring Mail plus Shield OR Scale Mail a unique armor class rating*. But if you expand the armor class range from eight ratings to nine ratings but at the same time keep the to hit progression at a smooth one to one, then either you must make it one easier to hit at AC 10 or one harder to hit at AC 2. Gygax elected to go with the latter. So, even though it looks like 1e makes everyone an average of one point worse in their to hit rolls, this difference would have disappeared if we had looked at AC 10 instead of AC 2.

*Not true.

4. 1e is quite tough on Magic-Users and Thieves--the toughest of them all if you exclude LOTFP.

5. On the other hand, if your dream is to be a melee-mad Magic-User, find a Swords & Wizardry Complete game.

6. In the differences among editions and clones, Clerics and Fighting-Men vary the least and Magic-Users and Thieves vary the most.

7. 0e has some interesting results in places. For example, in 0e a 6th level Magic-User has precisely the same to hit numbers as a 6th level Fighting-Man.

8. Basic/Expert precisely tracks 0e.

9. Of the clones (with the exception of LOTFP), all except Swords and Wizardry either precisely track their originals or closely do so. This is to be expected, of course.

10. There's a bit of controversy over what is legally required (or prohibited) in terms of emulating the attack tables of earlier versions of the original game. This is partly because the Systems Reference Document does not contain a protected template for this. Is the mathematical pattern behind an attack table a non-copyright protected rule, or copyright protected substance? Interestingly, OSRIC precisely tracks 1e in three out of the four classes (Fighting-Men differ slightly). Labyrinth Lord and Delving Deeper make small changes from their originals. But they are not necessarily random twiddles. For example, the author of Delving Deeper has a complex but logical, fascinating and satisfying rationale for why the Delving Deeper progressions are in a certain sense faithful (perhaps even more faithful than the original numbers) to the mathematical theory behind the 0e progressions, based partly on what they owe to Chainmail. For my part, in Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, I followed the 0e algorithms precisely but presented them (in my view) quite differently from the original and from the other clones. Thus, for example, instead of a chart containing rows of classes or class levels, my central attack table references weapons (which, if you will, is part of why I think I 'get away with it').

So given 1, above, what difference does any of this really make? Why did I agonize for days over my own attack progression scheme?

(No jokes please.)

With your indulgence, I'll try to answer that tomorrow.

OD&D Attack Progressions Compared (Originals and Clones), Part I

Moldvay Basic
A comment on the last blog post made me want to do this.

Here are the attack progressions to hit Armor Class 2 by level for ten games--the three major OD&D versions and seven contemporary clones:

Dungeons & Dragons (0e) (1974-78)
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (1e) (1979)
Moldvay Basic/Cook Expert Dungeons & Dragons (B/X) (1981).
OSRIC (2006)
Labyrinth Lord (2007)
Swords & Wizardry (2008)*
Swords & Wizardry White Box (2009)*
Lamentations of the Flame Princess (2010)*
Seven Voyages of Zylarthen (2013)*
Delving Deeper V4 (2014)

Those with an asterisk list things in attack bonus form rather than table form, but for the sake of this comparison all will be listed in table form.

For OSRIC I used version 2.2. I assume the numbers are the same across all versions but I may be wrong on that. For Swords & Wizardry I used the recent 'Complete' edition, which may or not have different numbers from the original 2008 edition. The numbers for Delving Deeper are from the most recent edition, which differ somewhat from those of earlier editions.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes.

Looking at the tables a number of things leap out. Some things were not surprising. Some were.

I'll make some comments tomorrow. But I welcome any comments or observations anyone would like to make.

(If you turn your phone sideways, I think these will exactly fill up the screen. You probably already knew that. But I didn't.)

To Hit Armor Class 2:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
FIGHTING-MAN
Level
Avg.
Avg.
Avg.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1-5
6-10
Total
0e
17
17
17
15
15
15
12
12
12
10
16.2
12.2
14.2
1e
18
18
16
16
14
14
12
12
10
10
16.4
11.6
14.0
B/X
17
17
17
15
15
15
12
12
12
10
16.2
12.2
14.2
OSRIC
18
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
16.0
11.0
13.5
Labyrinth Lord
17
17
16
15
14
13
12
12
11
10
15.8
11.6
13.7
S&W Complete
17
17
16
15
15
14
13
12
11
10
16.0
12.0
14.0
S&W White Box
17
16
15
15
14
13
13
12
11
11
15.4
12.0
13.7
LOTFP
17
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
15.0
10.0
12.5
Seven Voyages
17
17
17
15
15
15
12
12
12
10
16.2
12.2
14.2
Delving Deeper
16
16
15
15
15
15
12
12
12
12
15.4
12.6
14.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
MAGIC-USER
Level
Avg.
Avg.
Avg.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1-5
6-10
Total
0e
17
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
17.0
15.0
16.0
1e
19
19
19
19
19
17
17
17
17
17
19.0
17.0
18.0
B/X
17
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
17.0
15.0
16.0
OSRIC
19
19
19
19
19
17
17
17
17
17
19.0
17.0
18.0
Labyrinth Lord
17
17
17
16
16
16
16
15
15
15
16.6
15.4
16.0
S&W Complete
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
14
14
13
16.6
14.2
15.4
S&W White Box
17
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
14
14
16.8
14.8
15.8
LOTFP
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18.0
18.0
18.0
Seven Voyages
17
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
17.0
15.0
16.0
Delving Deeper
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
15
16.6
15.0
15.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
CLERIC
Level
Avg.
Avg.
Avg.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1-5
6-10
Total
0e
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
1e
18
18
18
16
16
16
14
14
14
12
17.2
14.0
15.6
B/X
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
OSRIC
18
18
18
16
16
16
14
14
14
12
17.2
14.0
15.6
Labyrinth Lord
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
15
14
14
16.6
14.6
15.6
S&W Complete
17
17
16
16
15
15
14
14
13
12
16.2
13.6
14.9
S&W White Box
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
14
13
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
LOTFP
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18.0
18.0
18.0
Seven Voyages
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
Delving Deeper
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.2
13.8
15.0
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
THIEF
Level
Avg.
Avg.
Avg.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1-5
6-10
Total
0e
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
1e
19
19
19
19
17
17
17
17
14
14
18.6
15.8
17.2
B/X
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
OSRIC
19
19
19
19
17
17
17
17
14
14
18.6
15.8
17.2
Labyrinth Lord
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
15
14
14
16.6
14.6
15.6
S&W Complete
17
17
17
16
16
15
15
14
14
13
16.6
14.2
15.4
S&W White Box
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
LOTFP
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18.0
18.0
18.0
Seven Voyages
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
12
12
16.6
13.8
15.2
Delving Deeper
17
17
17
17
15
15
15
15
15
15
16.6
15.0
15.8
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
AVERAGES
Level
Avg.
Avg.
Avg.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1-5
6-10
Total
0e
17.0
17.0
17.0
16.5
15.5
15.0
14.3
14.3
12.8
12.3
16.6
13.7
15.2
1e
18.5
18.5
18.0
17.5
16.5
16.0
15.0
15.0
13.8
13.3
17.8
14.6
16.2
B/X
17.0
17.0
17.0
16.5
15.5
15.0
14.3
14.3
12.8
12.3
16.6
13.7
15.2
OSRIC
18.5
18.3
18.0
17.3
16.5
15.8
15.0
14.8
13.8
13.0
17.7
14.5
16.1
Labyrinth Lord
17.0
17.0
16.8
15.8
15.5
14.8
14.5
14.3
13.5
13.3
16.4
14.1
15.2
S&W Comp.
17.0
17.0
16.5
15.8
15.5
14.8
14.3
13.5
13.0
12.0
16.4
13.5
14.9
S&W WB
17.0
16.7
16.3
16.0
15.3
14.7
14.3
13.7
12.7
12.3
16.3
13.5
14.9
LOTFP
17.8
17.5
17.3
17.0
16.8
16.5
16.3
16.0
15.8
15.5
17.3
16.0
16.6
7 Voyages
17.0
17.0
17.0
16.3
15.7
15.0
14.0
14.0
13.0
12.3
16.6
13.7
15.1
DD
16.8
16.8
16.5
16.0
15.0
15.0
14.3
14.3
13.5
13.5
16.2
14.1
15.2